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Post by russ on Sept 5, 2020 9:14:34 GMT
Yes you're right Russ the comparison is easier; Oz game far better spectacle. Yet again though JJR the confusion between the rules and the adaptation doesn't help.
That might make it sound like I'm having it both ways but if you believe scrums are what makes that difference you must retain them but I think the argument is flawed.
Faster is not necessarily better but it is more exciting to watch and has made players think more. It has meant more open play in Oz and even more so here. The defenses have not adapted so well but that will alter as time goes on. And then we'll need another new rule to brighten things up again.
It is interesting to me that the people put off by the predictability of 5 drives and a kick are often the same ones complaining about missing scrums.
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Post by JJR on Sept 5, 2020 9:34:26 GMT
For me it's going downhill. Just look at the crowd last night.
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Post by bonitared on Sept 5, 2020 10:20:13 GMT
I’m a recent convert to the NRL ,and I love English rugby league,but the Aussie spectacle is far better.
Scrums are not the reason,obviously, but they still have them in Oz,and it works better.
The fact that they have better players,infrastructure,tv coverage also helps !
Their refs don’t try to become the centre of attention.
So,keep scrums and keep set restart
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2020 10:27:03 GMT
Just because it's change doesn't mean it's right. In my view we change too much and if this sticks we now have a different game to Oz, but that's another problem The issue to me is that scrums, mostly as they were added another dimension, added interest and needed different types of player So now we have no scrum halves, hookers or props but we have two fast men three smaller tricky men and eventually eight biggish centres. And, ok we have lots of big scores, but it's becoming uninteresting. Gave up watching last nights games; cricket was good though. in fact, and I hate to say it, it's making Union look interesting because of the variety of play. If this carries on, no season ticket for me. Throughout the year we should run 7s/9s competitions to attract other types of spectator. But not a 13 a side , 7s type game for me. Like Russ I am enjoying the scope of opinions. I’m very much in JJR’s court with this. It’s not that we love scrums,merely a way of removing players from the play. Hopefully allowing fast men to operate. Also it looks far more professional to “ rest “ in the scrum rather than hanging around counting the clock down. We are not being reactionary to change merely wanting to watch a game retaining it’s integrity. Those of us who were around in the day,welcomed the introduction of the 4 tackle rule to speed things up but in the main still recogniseable as Rugby League. |
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Post by Carnster on Sept 5, 2020 12:20:55 GMT
Just because it's change doesn't mean it's right. In my view we change too much and if this sticks we now have a different game to Oz, but that's another problem The issue to me is that scrums, mostly as they were added another dimension, added interest and needed different types of player So now we have no scrum halves, hookers or props but we have two fast men three smaller tricky men and eventually eight biggish centres. And, ok we have lots of big scores, but it's becoming uninteresting. Gave up watching last nights games; cricket was good though. in fact, and I hate to say it, it's making Union look interesting because of the variety of play. If this carries on, no season ticket for me. Throughout the year we should run 7s/9s competitions to attract other types of spectator. But not a 13 a side , 7s type game for me. Like Russ I am enjoying the scope of opinions. I’m very much in JJR’s court with this. It’s not that we love scrums,merely a way of removing players from the play. Hopefully allowing fast men to operate. Also it looks far more professional to “ rest “ in the scrum rather than hanging around counting the clock down. We are not being reactionary to change merely wanting to watch a game retaining it’s integrity. Those of us who were around in the day,welcomed the introduction of the 4 tackle rule to speed things up but in the main still recogniseable as Rugby League. If you go to hospital and have your appendix out, you're still recognisable. You've just lost a useless leftover that doesn't provide anything. Same with RL. The NRL still have scrums because all the players exist in covid bubbles, allowing them to interact closely. Something that hasn't been done in SL, hence the dropping of scrums to limit the amount of times guys breathe heavily on each other. I like the game without scrums, but if they come back they come back. They seem like a throwback that we can't shake off, but at the end of the day, people are suspicious of change, which is ironic as they are also quick to adapt. I think it's been an interesting experiment that shows where the game could go if we allow ourselves to finally drop the last bit of RU baggage and embrace the future. |
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Post by bonitared on Sept 5, 2020 13:36:20 GMT
Carnster,nicely argued,but we’ll agree to disagree.
It’s not being suspicious of change,it’s change for changes sake. RU baggage is an irrelevance.
You are quite correct,though,that it shows where the game could go.
I’d prefer it to stay close to the NRL model which is just fine where it is
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Post by JJR on Sept 5, 2020 14:03:12 GMT
We see why the change has taken place but I don't think anybody is suspicious of it, it's a matter of preference.
I think there are good games in RU but I don't see why because things are from RU we have to change them
A big issue is that the N & S hemisphere sides are innovating in their own ways and are drifting apart. It's about time they came together settled the joint rules and let the game stabilise for a while.
Our problem is not the rules but the lack of worldwide planning. With people like Rimmer at the helm everything seems short term and knee jerk.
In terms of development RU have wiped the floor with us because they have a workable funded international 10 year plan, not on the back of fag packets. We appear really amateur in our approach, seeming to want to relate to the working class cloth cap and whippet shillings and pence image And all we're doing is gradually getting rid of long term professional teams on the back of short term money from overseas investors which usually come to nought.
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Post by Carnster on Sept 5, 2020 15:11:49 GMT
My point about 'suspicious of change' was more a generalisation of people in general rather than this subject. I didn't really make that clear. I was trying to convey the fact that people generally push back against change in any form initially but then are quick to adapt.
I do agree with the point about N and S hemispheres working together. Would be the right thing to do. SL could do worse than being bought out by the NRL, who are not perfect, but streets ahead of our governing body. I do think that the trouble with northern RL is that it is still very parochial in its outlook, and those that have the power in SL are a handful of owners who like things just the way they are.
RU succeeds because it has a huge advantage over RL by being entrenched with the ruling classes and all the exposure, money, and investment that that brings with it. Yes we are still amateur in what we do, but we are too obsessed with quick fixes and ignore the long game.
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Post by redfan on Sept 5, 2020 15:17:15 GMT
Many many years ago I attended a coaching course along with a few amateur and professional players all looking at getting into coaching. A section of the course was held by a professional referee, part of the conversation was regarding how the rule makers could help make the game easier for us future coaches. A couple of us pointed out that it was not for us to ask for rule changes but for us to adhere to the rules but adjust our coaching ability to create the best tactics and team to beat the opposition , obviously as an amateur coach you are restricted on the type of player you have available , but as a professional coach you bring in the player you want that will be able to project the on field tactics that you feel will win you games.
So I read people on hear say change to adapt and progress, ok yes to a degree, but surely keep to the same concept to what the sport is all about, what we have now is 13 second row forwards running around like headless chickens with the game being won on an individual error or a stupid penalty but little skill.
The sport was built on different facets of big props nippy halfbacks ball playing loose forwards spectacular wingers and centres who new how to pass a ball, except for the wingers there is very little of the rest that will be about the rugby field if we carry on changing the rules to accommodate what we think is a supposedly different cliental.
Are we improving the sport, me personally I don't think so and i am not the only one just look at the attendances, yet rugby union, as inferior a sport that it is as increased its spectator levels four fold at club level but all they have done is tweak a rule here and there, the only other difference they went professional, obviously they still have the big draw of internationals, but they kept hold of big lumbering forwards nippy half backs and the odd good winger, they still are not a patch on our players.
So can the new breed of supporter please tell me where the rest of the supporters are coming from and where the old support as gone.
Sorry for the rant.
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Post by russ on Sept 5, 2020 16:18:16 GMT
Kick and clap has decimated its rules over the last twenty years in a process that began before then. In one fell swoop they took something like 100 off the books.
The disappearing support is both an age and society thing: Ouf fans are among an older age group on the whole so disappear naturally on the one hand. Certain sports will dominate simply because of their media coverage which RL lacks for no real reason. There is a general decline in both spectators and participation in all sports but some have a larger base to beging with and more money to spend on remedies.
On the notion of new support that is a necessity.
Now I've watched this sport through from unlimited tackles to today and the fans have never been the happiest or most content bunch in all that time. The fact that this latest rule change is a cause for anger and annoyance is about as surprising as England voting conservative.
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Post by dixon13 on Sept 5, 2020 16:59:07 GMT
Let's have it right.If the people who own these Premiership club left,Unions on its knees.Yes they are playing like us but theirs is a sanitised game uncontested scrums different ruck and mauls just to get the TV money as for football they will be playing in carpet slippers before long tackling will be outlawed its not only Rugby League and know one calls them at Red Hall more than me. How long would the stooges on sky last in Australia, they would say Skippy and his mates are better than this lot send them back.Sky now treat the game as a joke a filler like the BBC did in the past.
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Post by Carnster on Sept 5, 2020 18:03:36 GMT
Many many years ago I attended a coaching course along with a few amateur and professional players all looking at getting into coaching. A section of the course was held by a professional referee, part of the conversation was regarding how the rule makers could help make the game easier for us future coaches. A couple of us pointed out that it was not for us to ask for rule changes but for us to adhere to the rules but adjust our coaching ability to create the best tactics and team to beat the opposition , obviously as an amateur coach you are restricted on the type of player you have available , but as a professional coach you bring in the player you want that will be able to project the on field tactics that you feel will win you games. So I read people on hear say change to adapt and progress, ok yes to a degree, but surely keep to the same concept to what the sport is all about, what we have now is 13 second row forwards running around like headless chickens with the game being won on an individual error or a stupid penalty but little skill. The sport was built on different facets of big props nippy halfbacks ball playing loose forwards spectacular wingers and centres who new how to pass a ball, except for the wingers there is very little of the rest that will be about the rugby field if we carry on changing the rules to accommodate what we think is a supposedly different cliental. Are we improving the sport, me personally I don't think so and i am not the only one just look at the attendances, yet rugby union, as inferior a sport that it is as increased its spectator levels four fold at club level but all they have done is tweak a rule here and there, the only other difference they went professional, obviously they still have the big draw of internationals, but they kept hold of big lumbering forwards nippy half backs and the odd good winger, they still are not a patch on our players. So can the new breed of supporter please tell me where the rest of the supporters are coming from and where the old support as gone. Sorry for the rant. Everything changes. For bad or good is subjective, and RL is no different. The sport was born out of change and has never been afraid to change its core concepts and tweak away at the rules that require it. It has changed incredibly over the decades and will continue to. I'm pretty sure at every stage in RL's history there have been fans that rally against the latest change. With time, those changes become fixed for us fans. We're just in a particular cycle of change and just like every facet of society that is striding forward, us old farts now occupy the space that our fathers and grandfathers did when we fell in love with the game. Time can make us cynical, as it did them. We should just enjoy the ride while we can.  |
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Post by russ on Sept 5, 2020 18:11:05 GMT
Many many years ago I attended a coaching course along with a few amateur and professional players all looking at getting into coaching. A section of the course was held by a professional referee, part of the conversation was regarding how the rule makers could help make the game easier for us future coaches. A couple of us pointed out that it was not for us to ask for rule changes but for us to adhere to the rules but adjust our coaching ability to create the best tactics and team to beat the opposition , obviously as an amateur coach you are restricted on the type of player you have available , but as a professional coach you bring in the player you want that will be able to project the on field tactics that you feel will win you games. So I read people on hear say change to adapt and progress, ok yes to a degree, but surely keep to the same concept to what the sport is all about, what we have now is 13 second row forwards running around like headless chickens with the game being won on an individual error or a stupid penalty but little skill. The sport was built on different facets of big props nippy halfbacks ball playing loose forwards spectacular wingers and centres who new how to pass a ball, except for the wingers there is very little of the rest that will be about the rugby field if we carry on changing the rules to accommodate what we think is a supposedly different cliental. Are we improving the sport, me personally I don't think so and i am not the only one just look at the attendances, yet rugby union, as inferior a sport that it is as increased its spectator levels four fold at club level but all they have done is tweak a rule here and there, the only other difference they went professional, obviously they still have the big draw of internationals, but they kept hold of big lumbering forwards nippy half backs and the odd good winger, they still are not a patch on our players. So can the new breed of supporter please tell me where the rest of the supporters are coming from and where the old support as gone. Sorry for the rant. Everything changes. For bad or good is subjective, and RL is no different. The sport was born out of change and has never been afraid to change its core concepts and tweak away at the rules that require it. It has changed incredibly over the decades and will continue to. I'm pretty sure at every stage in RL's history there have been fans that rally against the latest change. With time, those changes become fixed for us fans. We're just in a particular cycle of change and just like every facet of society that is striding forward, us old farts now occupy the space that our fathers and grandfathers did when we fell in love with the game. Time can make us cynical, as it did them. We should just enjoy the ride while we can. In spite of the fact that I said I was for scrums but feel we're better off without them now I do understand people being upset by any change.
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Post by JJR on Sept 5, 2020 21:03:36 GMT
I knew you had wisdom Russ
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Post by salfordlad1 on Sept 6, 2020 21:33:00 GMT
Many moons ago Greenwood was an England RU player from Orrell referred to Rugby League as a simple game for simple minds. I have never forgotten that insult. Last night never has that insult been nearer the truth. We must not continue with no scrums and six again. As stated elsewhere we were watching glorified sevens with little structure to the game and players and officials running down the shock? Clock to take a breather. As Sadler from League Express said Faster is not better. Any views? To be honest I disagree with both yourself and Mr Greenwood but I will only tackle your points as I don't hold Rugby Union fans opinions on our game that highly as it is fairly obviously that Rugby League as a sport (as in on the pitch) is a far superior game. And every player that's played both codes will tell you that League is much tougher to play which says it all really. On the scrums, I honestly believe our game is better without them, as let's be honest, they were pretty pointless due to 99% of them being uncontested. Moreover, I don't believe they were good for the casual/new spectator either who may have watched a game of Union before their first taste of Rugby League. I could see an uncontested scrum being quite confusing for new potential clients of the sport. Surely they'd be thinking "What was the point of the scrum" perhaps to the person that introduced them to the game of Rugby League. Additionally, not having scrums means there is less breakages in play and it doesn't give players a breather which ultimately leads to greater fatigue which in turn creates more breaks, tries and excitement which is what the paying viewer wants. The same could be said about the 6 again rule as it allows the game to flow and there isn't huge stoppages in play. I also think a lot of people are put off playing Rugby League as they find the players intimidating due to the size of them. If you look at videos from the 70s & 80s RL players were much smaller, and who knows Jonathan Davies may have never played Rugby League in our day and age due to his size? If these new rules mean players will need to lose size to get around the field we could see more normal sized bloke playing RL. This could potentially help the sport increase grassroots participation which I understand has dwindled since the 70, 80 & 90, especially in Salford from what I hear. Appreciate my points will divide opinion but I'd keen to hear from anyone who has objecting views to those I have raised. |
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