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Post by Carnster on Aug 2, 2017 8:40:30 GMT
The penalty count at HT at Wakefield was 9:1 with Tasi in the bin. The ref, Hick. The penalty count at Cas recently was v much in favour of Cas, the ref Bentham, in fact we lost Wella to a team penalty. Is the world of refs against us or is our ref advisor.......... You are ignoring the glaring fact in front of your nose... High penalty counts in these games were due to our team giving more penalties away. That's it. What you are doing is trying to reinforce your own opinion here. You're taking information and fitting it around your argument. What you should be doing is taking the facts and form your argument based on what it's telling you. The obvious and simple are often the truth, as boring as that may be. Refs are not against us. Our ref advisor offers advice. Our team gives the penalties away. Blaming our ref advisor for the teams inability to manage their own penalties is like blaming Watson for a player knocking-on. |
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Post by scoot on Aug 2, 2017 8:58:30 GMT
As an ex ref and T.J I do take a bit more interest in the Ref,s performance for instance we always seem to get penalised first in a game. Against Wigan, Semi Final, Childs penalised L Tomkins for not being square at the PTB. If you watch the replay Tomkins makes a tackle and gets square. The Sam Tomkins sin bin could/should it of been a penalty try ?. The three on reports Tasi gets penalised the two from Wigan continue with a PTB. The Powell on report Childs says to Captain Dobson " we did not see what happened, yet he is getting fed info in his earpiece throughout the game
At leigh Jack Smith penalised Salford not square at PTB first penalty of the game, his signals for any infringement at PTB are the same and for both teams
V Hull on Friday expect Salford to be penalised first at the PTB
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Post by osrd on Aug 2, 2017 10:06:47 GMT
As an ex ref and T.J I do take a bit more interest in the Ref,s performance for instance we always seem to get penalised first in a game. Against Wigan, Semi Final, Childs penalised L Tomkins for not being square at the PTB. If you watch the replay Tomkins makes a tackle and gets square. The Sam Tomkins sin bin could/should it of been a penalty try ?. The three on reports Tasi gets penalised the two from Wigan continue with a PTB. The Powell on report Childs says to Captain Dobson " we did not see what happened, yet he is getting fed info in his earpiece throughout the game At leigh Jack Smith penalised Salford not square at PTB first penalty of the game, his signals for any infringement at PTB are the same and for both teams V Hull on Friday expect Salford to be penalised first at the PTB Scoot,you have studied the various matches in a lot more detail than myself and many others but you have arrived at the same conclusion as I have in that there appears to be a level of consistency in we tend to know which team will be penalised first in most games we then have the inconsistency of the opposing team doing exactly what we have done and the officials arrive at a different decision. The antics at the play the ball that some teams get penalised for and others don't are glaring examples of where things are going wrong in the game,and several people that I know who are not Salford supporters but watch the TV games are continually asking are there two sets of rules in some matches that are refereed by certain officials. By the way you were a lot faster running the line than some of the current ones.  |
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Post by JJR on Aug 2, 2017 11:54:15 GMT
Carnster untrue. At the Wakefield match I was stood with a group in hospitality which included ex players, not all from Salford. All we're baffled at many of the first half decisions. Wakefield seemed to do a lot wrong, offside, interference at the Ptb which all went unpunished. It always re-inforces the argument when you hear others, knowledgable rugby supporters from other teams, complaining about what Wigan and Leeds continually do and seem to get away with.
I quite often stand with the ref advisor and he seems as mystified at times. There is no dig at him and it is not saying refs are against Salford. The argument is that the speed of the game and the professionalism of a few teams makes the workload of the ref impossible. We need 2 refs or an improved role and training for touch judges to become assistant refs.
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Post by Carnster on Aug 2, 2017 12:19:47 GMT
Carnster untrue. At the Wakefield match I was stood with a group in hospitality which included ex players, not all from Salford. All we're baffled at many of the first half decisions. Wakefield seemed to do a lot wrong, offside, interference at the Ptb which all went unpunished. It always re-inforces the argument when you hear others, knowledgable rugby supporters from other teams, complaining about what Wigan and Leeds continually do and seem to get away with. I quite often stand with the ref advisor and he seems as mystified at times. There is no dig at him and it is not saying refs are against Salford. The argument is that the speed of the game and the professionalism of a few teams makes the workload of the ref impossible. We need 2 refs or an improved role and training for touch judges to become assistant refs. I partially agree with you. I think you're correct in your second point about workload, professionalism, and two refs. Your first point is just peoples interpretation of events. While thousands are watching any one event during a game, they are not all right in the assumptions they come to for various reasons. Besides which, it's only the interpretation of the ref and his TJ's that matter. They will get things wrong, but they do it based on the best evidence they can personally see at the time. Training and experience will iron-out mistakes but never get rid of them. Look at Australian refs. The officiation is vastly superior to ours, yet they are constantly berated, lambasted and scrutinized the same way ours are. The problem here, with RL fans and players and coaches, is that it seems ingrained in our psyches to constantly whine about refs and see things that are simply not there. Does the officiating need improving? yes. Is there some big conspiracy against lower teams? no. |
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Post by JJR on Aug 2, 2017 13:27:00 GMT
On the contrary mine was not meant to be a whine about the refs. It was in fact to encourage the view that we try to get more support for the refs. It is also not looking at a conspiracy against lower teams. The refs can only do their best but the game now, in my view, is going beyond one ref and two touch judges.
I think the likes of Wigan and Leeds are now very proficient in living right on the edge at the tackle, ptb and offside, probably because the clubs have played at the highest levels for so long. The rules are stretched and with one ref it becomes an impossible job. Also it is only human in the situation of large home crowds that the refs will be swayed to the home team with large baying crowds.
I do agree with you that, like Oz, it will never be right and crowds and coaches will always have a go at refs but in our situation we have to move forward and improve. I also think we need to utilise the video ref more, as in RU, when it's available.
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Post by tony13 on Aug 2, 2017 13:58:29 GMT
On the contrary mine was not meant to be a whine about the refs. It was in fact to encourage the view that we try to get more support for the refs. It is also not looking at a conspiracy against lower teams. The refs can only do their best but the game now, in my view, is going beyond one ref and two touch judges. I think the likes of Wigan and Leeds are now very proficient in living right on the edge at the tackle, ptb and offside, probably because the clubs have played at the highest levels for so long. The rules are stretched and with one ref it becomes an impossible job. Also it is only human in the situation of large home crowds that the refs will be swayed to the home team with large baying crowds. I do agree with you that, like Oz, it will never be right and crowds and coaches will always have a go at refs but in our situation we have to move forward and improve. I also think we need to utilise the video ref more, as in RU, when it's available. It seems that you and Carnster are coming to a mutual understanding of each other's point of view, which is good. You both make good points about the speed of the game being too much for one ref and the 'professionalism' (cheating?) of the top teams meaning they get away with stuff we just seem unable to replicate (a point I've also raised). I'd like to add another point around the same issue, that of being on 'the front foot'. If a team are breaking the line, their players tend to fall on their knees and get up quickly. When the defenders try to slow down the ptb in this instance, the offence is more obvious. In short, if a team is 'going forward', they will tend to get more penalties. Over the years, Wigan and Leeds have tended to 'go forward' more often than not, therefore they have tended to get more penalties. It all adds to the sense of injustice but doesn't mean refs are favouring them. Having said that, Wigan and Leeds are the best 'cheats' in the game. (again, a bit tongue-in-cheek!) |
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Post by hillbillyred on Aug 2, 2017 15:16:13 GMT
another factor, Tony13, is the years of effort put into the tackle by these two clubs: in fact reading the laws in a purer sense, they are breaking the laws in that the tackle action goes on longer than stopping the player moving or passing! There is a heritage of controlling the tackle that other clubs are chasing up.
I know the advice to refs is to allow the tackle to go to ground unless the tackled player is at risk of being injured ...
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Post by JJR on Aug 2, 2017 15:23:52 GMT
HB there are also the different 'types' of tackles now, that we need to understand, esp important is who is dominant. I must admit Wigan have it worked to perfection.
The call of 'tackled' from the ref doesn't seem to have consistency.
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Post by Carnster on Aug 2, 2017 16:11:29 GMT
On the contrary mine was not meant to be a whine about the refs. It was in fact to encourage the view that we try to get more support for the refs. It is also not looking at a conspiracy against lower teams. The refs can only do their best but the game now, in my view, is going beyond one ref and two touch judges. I think the likes of Wigan and Leeds are now very proficient in living right on the edge at the tackle, ptb and offside, probably because the clubs have played at the highest levels for so long. The rules are stretched and with one ref it becomes an impossible job. Also it is only human in the situation of large home crowds that the refs will be swayed to the home team with large baying crowds. I do agree with you that, like Oz, it will never be right and crowds and coaches will always have a go at refs but in our situation we have to move forward and improve. I also think we need to utilise the video ref more, as in RU, when it's available. It seems that you and Carnster are coming to a mutual understanding of each other's point of view, which is good. You both make good points about the speed of the game being too much for one ref and the 'professionalism' (cheating?) of the top teams meaning they get away with stuff we just seem unable to replicate (a point I've also raised). I'd like to add another point around the same issue, that of being on 'the front foot'. If a team are breaking the line, their players tend to fall on their knees and get up quickly. When the defenders try to slow down the ptb in this instance, the offence is more obvious. In short, if a team is 'going forward', they will tend to get more penalties. Over the years, Wigan and Leeds have tended to 'go forward' more often than not, therefore they have tended to get more penalties. It all adds to the sense of injustice but doesn't mean refs are favouring them. Having said that, Wigan and Leeds are the best 'cheats' in the game. (again, a bit tongue-in-cheek!) Spot-on point. The ebb and flow of a game and the fact that when one team starts to dominate the other are key factors to penalties conceded. I think we're all singing from the same hymn sheet on this, and without a 'bell-end' or 'muppet' mentioned at all! There is hope for internet forums! |
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